Curse

Jaigoda · May 22, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

12+1+1 Healing, 8+1 Prot, 10+1 Divine
WoH, Psprit, SoR, Healing seed, PS, Dismiss, CA, GoLE <---- Healing monk

12+1+1 Healing, 9+1 Prot, 9+1 Divine
WoH, Psprit, SoA, Aegis, PS, Dismiss, CA, GoLE <----- Hybrid

12+1+3 (or 1 w/e

) Healing, 12+1 Divine
HB, Psprit, Dkiss, Healing Seed, Words of comfort, CA, HP, GoLE <--- noob healing build

8+1 Healing, 12+1+1 Prot, 9+1 Divine
LS, GoH, Guardian, SB, SoA, Remove Hex, Aegis GoLE <----Prot monk

9+1 Healing, 12+1+1 Prot, 9+1 Divine
AoF, Psprit, Dkiss, SB, Aegis, Spotless mind, Spotless Soul, GoLE <--- Hybrid

I could keep going on but really its not that hard to look at a build and say "this is a Hybrid, and thats a Prot monk". ALL builds are hybrids from what most people see hybrid monk as because they all have at least two attributes. You can argue all you want over whats a hybrid and whats not, but its only a matter of time before you just start calling EVERY thing a hybrid, that is unless you only use half your Att points.

Some builds are more healing, and some builds are more Prot, and some have a balance of both. Thats all the needs to be said imo, just view the monks with more healing as healer monks and the monks with more prots as prot monks, and the monks with good balance as a hybrid.

Dude, you just won this thread in my eyes. Excellent post. EDIT: Just a small thing - I think you meant CH (Cure Hex), not CA. Sadly enough I had to really think to figure out those abbreviations...

Alright, so back to the topic at hand: Why do you think that a hybrid or a prot monk for the second monk slot is a better choice?

Jeydra · May 22, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Lets see the prots you will bring - Aegis, SoA, PS, SB. Maybe guardian. What else. Shielding hands - I would rather have seed of life or another copy of SoA. RoF is inferior to Patient spirit.

So yes, your Aegis will last a bit longer and instead of 22 you will have 24 seconds. You SoA will last 1 more sec. Your SB will heal for more. No cure hex that heals for loads.

LS is useless because: dismiss condition is great and RC is better than LS. You either run RC or you run another elite with dismiss condition.

Really, the only thing I see is Boon signet or RC in those special situations.

You might want to check that. SoA @ 10 spec = 6s, SoA @ 14 spec = 7s. +20% enchanting makes it 7s vs. 9s, which is certainly a difference. I have not tested this, but then I know Patient Spirit goes past a breakpoint when cast with 20% enchanting, so I'm guessing the same for SoA. You also lose two seconds of Aegis and one second off Guardian. Change to Spirit Bond is not negligible, it is a massive 16-point difference. You get superior healing off Dismiss Condition. Losing Cure Hex is a problem but not killing, since pretty much the only area with particularly dangerous hexes is DoA. Reversal is not inferior to Patient Spirit - Reversal is an instant heal, and monsters in HM usually hit for a lot, making Reversal easily trigger for >150 counting Divine Favour, which a Prot Monk will have more of too.

And besides, if you want to play it this way I can pose you the reverse question. What do you get from 14 Healing Prayers anyway? WoH, except one copy of it works almost as well. Signet of Rejuv, great energy management skill. Cure Hex, good hex remover that doubles as bar push. Anything else?

PS: If you're going to call the 16 health difference from Spirit Bond "not major", then I'll pull the same tactic and call the 20-point difference between 14-spec Signet of Rejuv and 9-spec Signet of Rejuv "not major". Of course it is major, just like the difference between 9s Aegis and 7s Aegis is major.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

In PvE RC isn't granted to heal. Mobs in PvE can kill without conditions, players in GvG will be hardly pressed to do the same (its possible but not as easily).

I tell you what. Let's take a look at the Zaishen quests for tomorrow. I have no idea what it is going to be other than some random area of PvE. I bet you there will be conditions to RC in both the Zaishen bounty and Zaishen mission. Today's missions sure included it: Against The Charr = burning, fighting the Afflicted = poison from Afflicted Soul Explosion if nothing else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

I never said Divert was good, actually. Again, ZB isn't the best option, but is a simple enough elite if you want to go full prot. And how exactly is 1/4s 2s recharge skill that potentially heals for 190, with an added bonus of removing two conditions (meaning bar compression), meh? And even then, you still have Boon Sig for red-bar-up (and if you consider 14 prot/13 divine a hybrid in any way, something's wrong with you).

Don't know about you, but Boon Signet's red-bar-up is infinitely weaker than Word of Healing. You heal some 76 health at 14 Divine, and then another 76 when you cast another spell. The second 76 is not on demand and you cannot trigger it when you need it. The first 76 is 5 more than Signet of Rejuv, except Signet of Rejuv can trigger for 142 and isn't elite. Both skills have the same cooldown, too.

I think Boon Signet isn't worth using in PvE. If you're not going to use RC, then by all means run Life Sheath or Aura of Faith.

Improvavel · May 22, 2009, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You might want to check that. SoA @ 10 spec = 6s, SoA @ 14 spec = 7s. +20% enchanting makes it 7s vs. 9s, which is certainly a difference. I have not tested this, but then I know Patient Spirit goes past a breakpoint when cast with 20% enchanting, so I'm guessing the same for SoA. You also lose two seconds of Aegis and one second off Guardian. Change to Spirit Bond is not negligible, it is a massive 16-point difference. You get superior healing off Dismiss Condition. Losing Cure Hex is a problem but not killing, since pretty much the only area with particularly dangerous hexes is DoA. Reversal is not inferior to Patient Spirit - Reversal is an instant heal, and monsters in HM usually hit for a lot, making Reversal easily trigger for >150 counting Divine Favour, which a Prot Monk will have more of too.

Guess it depends on the way the game does the rounding. For example rank 2 Divine favor bonus heals for 6 although its 6.4. 120% of 6s is 7.2s or 7 seconds duration. 120% of 7s is 8.4s or 8 secs not 9s.

Quote:

And besides, if you want to play it this way I can pose you the reverse question. What do you get from 14 Healing Prayers anyway? WoH, except one copy of it works almost as well. Signet of Rejuv, great energy management skill. Cure Hex, good hex remover that doubles as bar push. Anything else?

Dwayna's Kiss that is very powerful in PvE and spotless mind isn't that shabby.

Quote:

PS: If you're going to call the 16 health difference from Spirit Bond "not major", then I'll pull the same tactic and call the 20-point difference between 14-spec Signet of Rejuv and 9-spec Signet of Rejuv "not major". Of course it is major, just like the difference between 9s Aegis and 7s Aegis is major.

The Aegis difference of 2 seconds is real. The thing is if you have a 3rd copy in some mid liner doesn't make any difference if you have 2 rank 9 + 1 rank 14 Aegis or 3 ranks 9 Aegis.

Spirit Bond is fantastic but its much better in PvP than in PvE. In PvE Protective Spirit beats it due to larger, much larger, duration. Spirit Bond works much better vs the GvG spike types. In PvE HM almost everything is a spike.

Quote:

I tell you what. Let's take a look at the Zaishen quests for tomorrow. I have no idea what it is going to be other than some random area of PvE. I bet you there will be conditions to RC in both the Zaishen bounty and Zaishen mission. Today's missions sure included it: Against The Charr = burning, fighting the Afflicted = poison from Afflicted Soul Explosion if nothing else.

Using LS or RC to remove one condition when you have dismiss seems not really worth.

Quote:

Don't know about you, but Boon Signet's red-bar-up is infinitely weaker than Word of Healing. You heal some 76 health at 14 Divine, and then another 76 when you cast another spell. The second 76 is not on demand and you cannot trigger it when you need it. The first 76 is 5 more than Signet of Rejuv, except Signet of Rejuv can trigger for 142 and isn't elite. Both skills have the same cooldown, too.

I think Boon Signet isn't worth using in PvE. If you're not going to use RC, then by all means run Life Sheath or Aura of Faith.

Sincerely I have nothing against 1 WoH and 1 other elite monk, I just prefer if the second monk can heal too.

I don't know about Boon signet either although I enjoyed it in AB, which is a very different format.

JDRyder · May 22, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Dude, you just won this thread in my eyes. Excellent post. EDIT: Just a small thing - I think you meant CH (Cure Hex), not CA. Sadly enough I had to really think to figure out those abbreviations...

Alright, so back to the topic at hand: Why do you think that a hybrid or a prot monk for the second monk slot is a better choice?

yea I ment CH, idk why I put CA, I'm thinking cure affliction for some reason >.< Really I almost always take veil or some other skill over it because I don't find I need that heal, and pre veiling is to good to pass up to me.

Anyway, as I've said in in my 1st post, really it does not matter to me, take whatever you have fun with when it comes to PVE.

Grammar · May 24, 2009, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Either way will get the job done in PvE.

But 2 hybrids will get the job done better, because...
A. There is quite a bit of redundancy in the healing prayers line.
B. Protection spells are still very effective at lower levels.

Why you would ever need more than 3 spot heals on a single monk is beyond me, and party-wide heals are best left for non-monk primaries if at all. So that leaves 2 slots for removers, and 3 slots for prot stuff. And thus you have the hybrid.

Jaigoda · May 24, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Either way will get the job done in PvE.

But 2 hybrids will get the job done better, because...
A. There is quite a bit of redundancy in the healing prayers line.
B. Protection spells are still very effective at lower levels.

Why you would ever need more than 3 spot heals on a single monk is beyond me, and party-wide heals are best left for non-monk primaries if at all. So that leaves 2 slots for removers, and 3 slots for prot stuff. And thus you have the hybrid.

Did you even frigging read the thread? This has all been said before, and refuted each time. And I was going to write out why you are wrong, but I'm just going to let you actually read the thread.

JoeKnowMo · May 24, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Let's assume a 12+1+1 in one attribute (Healing or Prot) and 10+1 in the other and 8+1 in DF, for the sake of contancy in making comparisons.

Healing @ 11 vs. 14 Difference

Dkiss 48+28 57+33 [9+(5*number of enchants+hexes)]
PSpirit 96 114 18
HP+HB 95 108 [13*8=104]
WoH 75+92 94+109 [19+17=36]
LoD 53 66 [13*8=104]
SoR 59+59 71+71 [12+12]

Prot @ 11 vs. 14 Difference

Aegis 9 or 11 11 or 13 2s
Dismiss 59 71 12
Guardian 6 or 7 7 or 8 1s
PS 18 or 22 22 or 26 4s
RoF 63 76 13*2=26
SoA 6 or 7 7 or 8 1s
SBond 84 96 12*number of hits
RC 54 66 12*number of condis
LS 79 95 16*2=32 + 1 more condi

Both attributes gain a decent bit when going from 11 to 14. One of the main criteria for choosing prot hybrid or heal hybrid is based on which elites you think are better.

WoH is almost a must have on one of the monks. So that means 1 heal hybrid. For the other elite I tend to prefer LoD or even HB. RC isn't always able to push red bars and LS is hit or miss. AoF isn't great in PvE and ZB is a worse version of WoH.

The other criteria for choosing heal hybrid or prot hybrid are based on the area and the quality of the group you're with. I would go prot hybrid if it suited the area well or if I'm with a skilled/guild group. Otherwise, heal hybrid for both positions is the default.

Improvavel · May 24, 2009, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Let's assume a 12+1+1 in one attribute (Healing or Prot) and 10+1 in the other and 8+1 in DF, for the sake of contancy in making comparisons.

Healing @ 11 vs. 14 Difference

Dkiss 48+28 57+33 [9+(5*number of enchants+hexes)]
PSpirit 96 114 18
HP+HB 95 108 [13*8=104]
WoH 75+92 94+109 [19+17=36]
LoD 53 66 [13*8=104]
SoR 59+59 71+71 [12+12]

Prot @ 11 vs. 14 Difference

Aegis 9 or 11 11 or 13 2s
Dismiss 59 71 12
Guardian 6 or 7 7 or 8 1s
PS 18 or 22 22 or 26 4s
RoF 63 76 13*2=26
SoA 6 or 7 7 or 8 1s
SBond 84 96 12*number of hits
RC 54 66 12*number of condis
LS 79 95 16*2=32 + 1 more condi

Both attributes gain a decent bit when going from 11 to 14. One of the main criteria for choosing prot hybrid or heal hybrid is based on which elites you think are better.

WoH is almost a must have on one of the monks. So that means 1 heal hybrid. For the other elite I tend to prefer LoD or even HB. RC isn't always able to push red bars and LS is hit or miss. AoF isn't great in PvE and ZB is a worse version of WoH.

The other criteria for choosing heal hybrid or prot hybrid are based on the area and the quality of the group you're with. I would go prot hybrid if it suited the area well or if I'm with a skilled/guild group. Otherwise, heal hybrid for both positions is the default.

A main consideration is Spirit Bond. Spirit bond is the best prot for GvG no doubts.

But for PvE Protective Spirit is just better.

Why?

PS will always reduce the damage to 10% of your health, so lets say around 55-65 and last long. SB is quite good when the damage is from 60 to around 100.

But when you taking 150 and 200 or 250 damage and then add the fast attack speed and casting time/recharge/extra energy of mobs in HM, PS is just better.

Probably 2 PS are better than 1 PS and 1 SB, even with the chance for overlap.

maxxfury · May 25, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Probably 2 PS are better than 1 PS and 1 SB, even with the chance for overlap.

For coverage yes.
>If 2 ps's overlap, you get a renewed duration.
>If PS and SB overlap, you get the benefit of PS with SB making someone VERY much harder to kill.

Ideally id want both, but thats kinda heavy on energy (damn you ER healers!)

Jeydra · May 29, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

A main consideration is Spirit Bond. Spirit bond is the best prot for GvG no doubts.

But for PvE Protective Spirit is just better.

Why?

PS will always reduce the damage to 10% of your health, so lets say around 55-65 and last long. SB is quite good when the damage is from 60 to around 100.

But when you taking 150 and 200 or 250 damage and then add the fast attack speed and casting time/recharge/extra energy of mobs in HM, PS is just better.

Probably 2 PS are better than 1 PS and 1 SB, even with the chance for overlap.

Spirit Bond owns. At 14 spec, it heals 96 health every time it triggers. For Prot Spirit to reduce more damage than Spirit Bond, you have to hit over 150 damage typically, assuming max health of about 600. Even HM mobs usually don't hit for that much. From today's ZQuests for example, that would be Rodgort's Invocation and Fireball - everything else hits under 150.

I'd agree a copy of Prot Spirit is great to have for pulling and for tanking Elementalist bosses (now these guys can hit for 500 damage) and Elementalist foes in general (eg. Burning Spirits). Prot Spirit also gets better the more DP you have. But Spirit Bond is great. If I'm going to ER heal for example and can only carry one big prot, I'd take Spirit Bond over Prot Spirit, and not because of the lower cooldown. It's just more useful overall.

Chthon · Jun 01, 2009, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Spirit Bond owns. At 14 spec, it heals 96 health every time it triggers. For Prot Spirit to reduce more damage than Spirit Bond, you have to hit over 150 damage typically, assuming max health of about 600. Even HM mobs usually don't hit for that much..

PS is infinitely superior in PvE. The primary job for bigprot is to stop the "wtfpwn," that nasty 1-or-2-hit kill that HM monsters can sometimes do with their broken attributes and damage baselines. PS always stops the wtfpwn. SB just takes the edge off. Admittedly, 96 (or 192 if 2 hits) is a lot of edge to take off; but it's still not always going to stop the wtfpwn.

Efficiency (both heal-or-prevent/time and heal-or-prevent/energy) is a secondary concern for bigprot. You're making an efficiency argument, and you may even be right, but efficiency shouldn't be the primary criterion here in the first place.

glacialphoenix · Jun 01, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Even HM mobs usually don't hit for that much. From today's ZQuests for example, that would be Rodgort's Invocation and Fireball - everything else hits under 150.

Actually, although I can't remember which Zquest it was on that day - I've seen 400+ damage fireballs from HM ele bosses, equally devastating Spirit Rifts from Rit bosses - and I haven't even started on the air eles or the dervish dinos in Asuran territory (yay Aegis). Even Mind Burn does very nasty damage to you in HM Tahnnakai, since the mobs have higher Fire Magic attributes, higher base damage, and more energy than just about anyone save possibly the elementalists.

And that's one spell from one damage source. You usually see a few - as Chthon puts it - wtfpwn mobs together, many of whom can take out a 60 AL caster almost effortlessly. HM mobs are, quite honestly, capable of being a spike all by their lonesome, and that's what the Prot Spirit is for.

afya · Jun 10, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

so regret i took SB instead of PS today, for Raven's point.

The plague of destruction did 5XX on me with its icy vein. SB was absolutely useless in this case.

for other mobs, still not worth bringing. for example the warrior destroyers, they did ~100 every hit. SB may tank for 5 secs but then reaches the 10 times counter and end. not very efficient in terms of energy and long lasting.

Tenebrae · Jun 10, 2009, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

But when you taking 150 and 200 or 250 damage and then add the fast attack speed and casting time/recharge/extra energy of mobs in HM, PS is just better.

Probably 2 PS are better than 1 PS and 1 SB, even with the chance for overlap.

This. Is pretty clear that weaken melee foes is a great way to reduce its damage on HM but maybe "that someone who has to" had lag or simply cant weaken all together right now and there is where PS shine.
Even thou it doesnt heal like SB you stop the spike and if the target gets lower than 50% HP .... well you know what happens.
+1 to PS here.

Beomagi · Jun 10, 2009, 01:07 PM // 13:07

What's this thread about really?

Why not to run a 12/12/3? Why not to run a pure healer or pure prot? (please read the word pure..) the meaning of Hybrid? The number of skills that must change to become a hybrid?

From what I can see, most of you do agree that a monk brings healing to a varying degree, and a form of protection - lo and behold, you're also agreeing on similar skills for protection - obviously, it indicates the priority of certain protection skills over others.

This thread has become kinda silly in one bashing another's version of "hybrid". Frankly If the OP is looking for preference, list the build setups and ask.

Nice to see "noob healer" defined though - since that's what I'd expect to be a "pure" healer. Just because it sucks doesn't mean it's not a pure healer - like running a sword wielding n/w.

Would it be safe to say, a Prot monk's elite is generally based in protection, and likewise for heal monks? To me most decent monk setups will be "Hybrids" or variants of this.

_Nihilist_ · Jun 11, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Unless you are bringing a Heal/Divine Monk, everything is going to be somewhat of a Hybrid due to Divine Favor healing. Period.

Prot Monks still have "red bar goes up" through DF, and some Prots like Reversal of Fortune and Spirit Bond heal as part of their effect. That's Hybrid.

Even the RoJ Smite Teams bring Smite Condi/Smite Hex, etc., which, through DF heals for a small amount.

This argument on Pure Heal vs. Pure Prot vs. Hybrid is starting to spiral...

Jaigoda · Jun 11, 2009, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Unless you are bringing a Heal/Divine Monk, everything is going to be somewhat of a Hybrid due to Divine Favor healing. Period.

Prot Monks still have "red bar goes up" through DF, and some Prots like Reversal of Fortune and Spirit Bond heal as part of their effect. That's Hybrid.

Even the RoJ Smite Teams bring Smite Condi/Smite Hex, etc., which, through DF heals for a small amount.

This argument on Pure Heal vs. Pure Prot vs. Hybrid is starting to spiral...

Lol.... I would never consider any monk with 14 in prot and 13 in divine to be a hybrid. The term hybrid applies more to attribute spread or to what skills you have than actually healing-and-protection-on-one-bar. Remember, a 'prot' monk refers to someone who specs in protection prayers, not just who mitigates damage. Otherwise, some crap with stoneflesh aura could also be considered a protection monk, since it is mitigating damage after all. RoF and ZB can heal people, but they're still prot spells, and someone using them isn't necessarily a hybrid.

This argument is only starting to spiral because people are wrongly trying to lump 90% of monks into the hybrid category.

bungusmaximus · Jun 12, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27

My gripe with pure healing monks is that they simply don't have enough cool skills to fill an entire bar with, If I want heals, it will be n/Rt, foul feast is too good to pass up anyways.

IF I run 2 monks It's usually 1 prot and 1 N/Rt